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Winnipeg Free Press - ONLINE EDITION

Vincent Li found not criminally responsible for murder

By: Mike McIntyre, with files from The Canadian Press

5/03/2009 12:53 PM | Comments: 100

An artist's drawing of Vince Li inside the courtroom in Winnipeg.

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An artist's drawing of Vince Li inside the courtroom in Winnipeg. (TOM ANDRICH / WINNIPEG FREE PRESS)

Tim Mclean Sr. displays a tattoo of his son outside court Thursday, after the judge handed down his verdict.

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Tim Mclean Sr. displays a tattoo of his son outside court Thursday, after the judge handed down his verdict. (MIKE APORIUS / WINNIPEG FREE PRESS)

Carol deDelley (left) mother of Tim McLean, kisses her daughter Katie outside the Law Courts in Winnipeg Thursday.

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Carol deDelley (left) mother of Tim McLean, kisses her daughter Katie outside the Law Courts in Winnipeg Thursday. (JOHN WOODS / THE CANADIAN PRESS)

Carol deDelley and Tim Mclean Sr. speak to the media outside the Law Courts after the verdict was handed down.

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Carol deDelley and Tim Mclean Sr. speak to the media outside the Law Courts after the verdict was handed down. (MIKE APORIUS / WINNIPEG FREE PRESS)

Vincent Li is headed to a hospital – not a prison cell – after being found not criminally responsible today for the murder of Tim McLean on board a Greyhound bus last summer.

Li admitted killing, beheading and cannibalizing McLean but believed he was acting under commands from God to attack a "demon" or else he would be executed, court heard during the two-day trial.

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"These grotesque acts are appalling. However, the acts themselves and the context in which they were committed are strongly suggested of a mental disorder," Queen’s Bench Justice John Scurfield said in his decision.

"He did not appreciate the actions he committed were morally wrong. He believed he was acting in self defence."

Li, 40, showed no emotion at the verdict and was quietly led away by sheriff’s officers. He will appear before a Criminal Code review board in the next 90 days, where it is expected he will be sent to the Selkirk Mental Health Centre for long-term treatment. Li is currently housed in the psychiatric ward at the Health Sciences Centre.

He will be institutionalized without a criminal record and will be reassessed every year by a mental health review board to determine if he is fit for release into the community.

Crown attorney Joyce Dalmyn told reporters outside court justice had been served.

"I feel the judge did his job properly and reached the correct conclusion," she said. Dalmyn believes the review board will thoroughly monitor Li and will not let him return to the community unless they are certain he doesn’t pose a risk to society.

The victim’s family was upset, but not surprised, by the outcome. They are vowing to fight to keep Li locked up and want federal laws to change so that people like him never have the chance at release.

McLean's mother, Carol deDelley, said Li may have been mentally ill when he attacked her son, but the fact remains that a crime was committed.

"He still did it," she told reporters outside court. "Whether he was in his right frame of mind or not, he still did the act. There was nobody else on that bus holding a knife slicing up my child. Nobody else did that. Just one individual did that."

DeDelley said the law needs to be changed so someone can be found not psychologically accountable but still criminally responsible for a crime.

She also took a shot at Canadian immigration policies which she said allowed Li, who was born in China, into the country with a mental illness in the first place.

Scurfield’s verdict wasn’t surprising, considering the only evidence presented by both the Crown and defence during the trial called for the NCR finding.

 

 

 

 

"This is as close to beyond a reasonable doubt as you can get. There's no contradictory evidence here," Li's lawyer, Alan Libman, told Scurfield during a brief closing argument on Wednesday morning.

Dalmyn told court her department had a duty to raise the issue of criminal responsibility even though it is controversial with the public.

"Almost every member of the public has said 'That guy is crazy, he needs to be locked up,'" she said.

"The Crown can't ask this court to convict Li of second-degree murder when all evidence points to him being not criminally responsible. He was not able to appreciate the nature of his actions due to his delusional thinking. He was not able to determine right from wrong."

Dr. Jonathan Rootenberg, a forensic psychiatrist who met with Li at the request of his lawyers, told court Wednesday that he believes Li didn't know what he was doing when he attacked the sleeping McLean without warning or provocation.

"He certainly didn't know it was wrong. He was quite psychotic during that time period," Rootenberg said.

He said Li likely didn't view McLean as a human being as he attacked him. "He viewed the unfortunate victim as a demon. He believes it wasn't his hands doing that, but it was God's hands, through him."

He called Li a good candidate for treatment because he doesn't have any history of substance abuse or anti-social disorders, which are often psychotic triggers for people who have schizophrenia. Rootenberg added that Li has responded well to medical treatment and therapy but will always have to be watched closely to protect against a relapse.

"He is in the very early stages of being treated. He definitely represents a significant risk at this point," he said.

Rootenberg echoed the findings of the Crown's lone witness, Dr. Stanley Yaren, who told court Tuesday that Li said he heard voices from God that caused him to single out McLean for death.

Yaren said Li has a very strong chance to recover and was an otherwise "decent person" who was clearly out of his mind when he believed he was acting on God's commands to eliminate "the force of evil" by attacking McLean.

"He was being tormented by auditory hallucinations," Yaren said. "He believed Mr. McLean was a force of evil and was about to execute him. He had to act fast, urgently, to save himself. This wasn't an innocent bystander or stranger he chose to kill, but rather an evil force he was commanded to kill."

Yaren, the director of forensic psychiatry for both the province and the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority, said Li continued to attack the obviously deceased McLean based on voices he heard.

"He was terrified, frightened, tormented. Mr. Li's fear, because of what he was being told through these hallucinated voices, is that what he perceived to be the evil being would come back to life, through some supernatural powers and finish him off. He was in a frenzy to prevent this from happening," Yaren said.

mike.mcintyre@freepress.mb.ca

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100 Commentscomment icon

"a fair and appropriate decision?"
are you kidding me!!!
then think of it this way..
what if that was YOUR son on that bus coming home to visit you but instead, his head is cut of and parts of his body were actually eaten. i apologize for this comment being vulgur. but really, how would you feel if you knew the victim personally?

joecanadian stated that "Liberty and rights must be preserved over anger and overreaction, even if that reaction is natural and especially if it is justified" and heres my counter argument to that, first off, what about the Liberty and what about the RIGHTS of the innocent people? the ones whos lives were ruined by this aweful occurance? our justice system is giving out Rights to the wrong people. 2nd.. "ANGER AND OVER REACTION"!? are you kidding me? of course that should determine it because obviously were angry for a reason! thats just ridiculous! and third "expecially if it is justified" what the heck was justified about the outcome of this case? there is NO closure OR justice for the family and friends of Tim Mclean, and if Li actually suffers from schizophrenia, or w.e hes claiming a hospital isnt going to fix that. its not something that would just be cured.

I'm neither hypocritical nor a bleeding heart. Li should never be released into the public. However, we shouldn't mistake revenge for a preventative solution. Killing Li will not prevent another psychotic from murdering another innocent person. Li must remain in isolation from society, but others should not be punished because of his mistake. Liberty and rights must be preserved over anger and overreaction, even if that reaction is natural and especially if it is justified.

If possible, in the future, could you post a response without attempting to be demeaning towards a group who's views defer from your own? A forum is a place for civil debate and discourse, not of inflammatory statements and hatred.

all these bleeding heart liberals need to put themselves in people like Tim Mcleans family, and friends shoes. because i guarantee that their opinions on this matter would change drastically. Li is a monster, and all you bleeding heart liberals are too.

Joecanadian - lets say, for arguements sake, Li was hung or executed. What good would that do, you say? It would keep him from committing a repeat heinous act. Does public safety matter to you? Do you have children or family you care about? Would you let them near Li, maybe spend some time with him, since after all, he is a "decent fellow"????The thing is you will probably say no, and thats what make bleeding heart liberals so damn hypocritical.

This is why the "Silent Majority" must remain void of any type of actual power. They are voices of anger, reaction, and ignorance. If they had their way we would hang Li in public...and accomplish absolutely nothing. When people are sick enough mentally to commit such an atrocity, they will do it without any regard for the consequences. The only way that Tim's law could be of any use is if it was created with the goal of preventing future homicides. Killing one man will not bring back Mr. McLean, nor will it send a message to anyone in a psychotic state. However, it may be wise to enact some type of requirement for potentiably dangerous unstable people to take medication, and if they don't, then they should be subject to treatment. The risk, of course, is that any such program would be dangerously ressemble a return to eugenics. Which is more important? Protecting public safety defending the agency of human liberty? Do we punish that "mute majority" because of the failures of one man, or do we defend all freedom and rights equally in the interest of everyone?

Thanks for including my comment in the forum. Bet I'm going to get blasted by the religious right and the chronically under-traveled. I'm assuming that I'm confirming my previous comment with this post. Sign me, "anon".

If you kill someone, especially the way Li did, I personally feel, he must die too. This opens the door to lunatics around the world who will continue to plead NCR due to a mental illness. Yes perhaps I don't understand it, perhaps I don't want to. An eye for an eye. My heart goes out to the families personally affected, including those on the bus who had to witness unspeakable horror. They will never be the same. I think it will end with Li killing himself (he hasn't had the chance yet) or being killed by someone in the hospital. [edited]

So after reading all of these, we should bring back the death penalty, deport people back to their own countries and let them deal with the 'problem' and keep people in prison or behind bars without necessary or sufficient treatment and never be set free because they are a danger to society? I'm not excusing Mr. Li's actions whatsoever, but the way the silent majority thinks frightens me! I sincerely hope that this law they propose to change never happens. Mr. Li is going to need treatment for a long time, mental illness doesn't just go away overnight or in a couple of months. If he has made some strides, fine, but he has a long way to go.

I hear voices when my wife and kids talk to me. Does that make me mentally insane? If Vince Li is not responsible then I guess God is because he told Vince to do it and that makes God an assessorie to murder, so do we bring God to trial and find him guilty. That's how stupid all of this is. Vince is guilty as hell and we all know it. So when he gets out of the hospital and does it again all you bleeding hearts can apologize to the victim's family.

Everyone on earth have some sort of mental illness, it is just a matter of how well they can control themselves. Some can conrol better than others. We are all ticking time bombs that can go off any moment. Li just so happened to be a massive explosion that's all. Tim just so happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. If there is truly a god out there, whatever happened, god made it happened for a reason.

Luckily we have a sensible justice system that doesn't follow the so called silent majority and the dark path they want to take society down. Justice by lynch mob sounds like a terrible thing. I'm still confused as to how people think Vince Li is just going to walk away from this and somehow blend back into society without anyone knowing what he did. He has to live with what he did for the rest of his life, he will probably be in a mental institution for many years to come and will most likely never lead a normal life. Again, why the obsession with a punishment for Li when he's clearly ill? This isn't a simple case with clear cut right and wrong answers. When you have the crown prosecutor so fully in agreement with the defense that Vince Li was NCR then you know it's an extreme circumstance. The justice system is working just fine. Luckily we have a few voices of reason like Sierra instead of letting our emotions for instant revenge take over. There was simply no way to predict Li's violent behaviour so the only possible logical outcome from all those outraged out there would be to lock up every schizophrenic person for life no matter what they've done. Go back to the middle ages if you want that.

For everyone saying that Vincent Li was "smart" enough to buy a bus ticket so he must not be "that" mentally ill, are you that uneducated? My cousin suffers from schizophrenia and is perfectly capapble of holding a job, carrying on a conversation, and other everyday tasks. In fact, he is very smart and knows a lot more about electronics and how they work than most people do (his job). He does, however, say and do things that are unusual. I think a lot of the commenters on here do not know alot about mental illness. What happened to Tim was horrible. Just horrible, it gives me chills. But some of the uninformed and stigmatic comments I have read here, give me chills as well.

Mental illness. Who the heck cares!! There is lots of mental people in Winnipeg a few are on here posting, but that doesn't mean if you are mental EDITED you can kill people. People who are mental just like normal people shouldn't be carrying knives around. I say he should have been put in jail, the prisoners would have killed him or he could rot in the prison like he should. He should rot in hell. He is sick and insane. He should be held responsible for his actions. He should never be allowed to walk the streets ever again! He is truly a mental case and is a sorry excuse for a human being. Rot in hell!!

First of all, blessings to Tim's family. I'm with Tim's mom. Very disgusting with our justice system especially if we know this guy will be walking when??? WE KNOW HE'S CAPABLE OF IT! HE SHOULD BE LOCKED UP!

"Sierra" The masses in this case are not ignorant; we seem to be the "silent" majority...I think the public in general are sick and tired of people not being held accountable for their actions; however it is not "politically" correct to speak out. This guy walking away without as much as a criminal record is a joke. My hope is that the "silent" majority begins to speak up. The justice system in this great country needs change.

"the next time the Manitoba Schizophrenia Society comes knocking on your door for a donation, please tell them you will donate your money to the Tim Mclean Memorial Fund instead." After reading this comment I was going to ask you if you were stupid or something, but then I suddenly realised how obvious the answer to that question was that I decided against it. Seriously, why on earth would you try and punish other mentally ill people who have nothing to do with any of this? I guess that perhaps your line of thinking is similar to most of the other dullards on here who seem to believe that being mentally ill makes you at best, a "bad" person and at worst, a "criminal?" Have you ever considered-bright spark-that perhaps if there was more money allocated to the diagnosis and treatment of mental illness-and not less-that maybe incidents such as this may actually be avoided? I'll just take that as a("duh")"no"... One more thing, for all of you that seem to think that this is the time and place to spew out some of your thinly veiled racist diarrhea, can you please stop it, all it does is bring your already lame, ill-educated, reactionary and vengeful opinions down to an even lower level(yes, it really IS possible to do that). Thanks in advance.

So if and when Li is deemed no longer a danger to society, he will be released. Then if and when he decides to stop taking his medication, he could conceivably do the exact same horrendous crime again. Then he will be found "not criminally responsible" again! To the McLean family- do not sit back and take this! The entire country is outraged, this is not justice. This is a cruel display. The pendulum has swung too far in the other direction. Why do victims have no rights?

As Li has not been convicted of a crime, he's not a criminal. As some have been apt enough to point out, there has to be a mental element of fault for a conviction, and that is entirely lacking. I find it amazing and appalling that so many people can rag on the justice system and at the same time show complete ignorance of how and why it works the way it does. This is one of those cases where it worked perfectly. Murder is intentionally killing? Puh-lease!!!! There's a multitude of defences, including self defence, which was at issue in this case. Everyone should actually read or listen to the transcripts of what was said at trial, because things like why Li had a large knife on him is clearly answered. For Li and his family I have compassion. And when someone has been committed to a mental facility in this kind of circumstance, they aren't just released one day without supervision, and they can be forced to take meds. I'm more scared of the ignorant masses having a vote in this province than I am of Mr. Li.

Our CRIMINAL system needs major revamping. Shame on the judge for falling for Li's pathetic excuse. He chose not to be medicated therefore he should be found guilty for the crimes that he committed.

He does need and deserves help. But tax payers should NOT be paying the bill. I would have him sent back to his country of origin for the proper care he needs.

For all the people here (and its a majority by the looks of it) who feel Tim McLean's family has been snubbed and insulted...the next time the Manitoba Schizophrenia Society comes knocking on your door for a donation, please tell them you will donate your money to the Tim Mclean Memorial Fund instead. A message needs to be sent that a mental disease is not a free pass on accountability for murdering someone. Tim McLean, Rest In Peace.

Unfortunately for all those saying it's Li's family's fault, there's very few ways to make an adult comply to treatment for mental illness. And even if they are made to or get help themselves, the adult mental health system is voluntary and individuals can stop treatment at any time, even against medical opinion. Blaming Li's family is unfair

My condolences to Tim's family/friends and to the passengers on the bus; I'm so sorry you had to witness this horrific crime. I don't believe the family/friends/passengers will ever heal from such a tragedy. I do believe this speaks to our health care system; now all the Doctors believe Vincent Li is mentally ill; where were all these Doctors prior to this horrific crime. Who is going to monitor Vincent Li when he is released; these same doctors; I don't think so. So much media coverage on Vincent Li; what about Tim?

He'd be dead already if he did this in his own country. At least China knows how to deal with it's criminals. Not like us soft-hearted Canadians and our criminal-friendly justice system.

This is very sad. This Mr Li is a criminal regardless. He is Schizo. He hears voices. Voices that God told him to kill. If this so called man believed in God , then he would not of did what he did to that poor young man. God does not ask people to kill. Yes mental illness is a very real but so is Mr Li and his actions. So he goes to the nut house he proves himself takes his meds and keeps a clean record. Gets let out because he is progressing and bam, he stops taking his meds and history repeats itself. I lived with a brother who was Schizo and he caused much grief for my entire family. He took his life 2 years ago and I am thankful it was not me or my parents. People who are Schizo always find a way to out smart alot of those Dr's. I know I saw it first hand with my brother. Mr Li should be held accountable for his actions. He should be put in a place where he can never come out of. He will never become better he will have to have the help of a ward for the rest of his life. This man new exactly what he was doing he just denies it now because he had these Dr's talk to him and say he was Schizo and he did not no what he was doing at the time. These Dr's helped to influence him. This person has no right to life. I believe if you take a life regardless of who you are you deserve the exact same thing to happen to you. The Justice system in Canada stinks. It's much easier to walk around and say were crazy and have mental problems then try to deal with the realties of life. My heart goes out to the Family of Tim. I stand behind you in your fight for a better justice system in Canada.

Many individuals with mental illnesses do fall in the cracks! Its up to our mental health officials and loved ones to ensure this does not happen any more! Proper follow up is never done! Been there done that! NO follow up is done and unfortunately many people that are on medications stop taking them as the `Think`they are better, when in reality they are not, and should remain on meds for their entire lives! Anyone with a loved one with mental illness that refuses treatment, go see a magistrate for an involuntary mental health assesment, its free and you can remain anonymous! Help ensure that this tragedy NEVER happens again!!!

GFinn the only one who is being ignorant is you ,of what is happening coast to coast in this country,watch or read the news and will become very clear.Lets hope this doesn't happen to your family, like what happened to the McLeans and a good friend of mine years ago.

Obvious to everyone that this person is deeply insane...AND...at such time as he is ever deemed sane...he should then be held accountable for the hideous crime he committed.

Folks the logical answer should have been: 1.)Guilty 2.)Go Directly to Jail 3.)Medical Treatment in Jail 4.)Hope he recovers. To let this dude walk away without being held accountable is quite a message to send to our Canadian Society! Sad on all ends.

Alex DeLarge: But if someone is declared not criminally responsible, treated in a mental health facility and then imprisoned, as many people are suggesting Li should be, that punishment would be for the individual's mental illness; any subsequent imprisonment necessitates that he is being punished like a criminal for his illness, since he cannot be held responsible for his crime.

I'm deeply sorry for the family, this justice sucks when you the victim.

I feel that justice was not served in this case and if this guy was a risk in the past and fell through the cracks then they should find those who failed to act and let them serve his sentence. The Bottom line is that this family needs proper closure and I feel that is not what has happend here. Bad message to send to the Canadian public, hope there are no copy cat crimes in the future because of this decision by the courts.

Im very sorry to hear about the verdict, however we blame the justice system when really we should be blaming the mental health system and Li's family. Li's family should be held criminally responsible. They knew full well of his illness, however did not follow proper protocol in dealing with his illness! They could have seen a magistrate when they first noticed his mental illness, and his unwillingness to seek out treatment and should of got an involuntary assessment done! Its very easy to obtain! All they would of had to do was state why they felt Li was a danger to himself and or society, and the magistrate would of granted the order! Police could of picked him up and brought him straight to a mental health facilty and he would have had treatment!! And none of this would of ever happened!! Stop blaming the justice system people, blame the proper channels!

The ignorance of people in this city/country when it comes to mental illness completely amazes me and makes me ashamed as well. Prisons aren't set up to treat people with mental illnesses this severe. Vince Li is better off in a mental health facility rather than a prison, and he will probably be there for QUITE some time.

As soon as I read that the mother mentioned Immigration Canada as a party to blame, I figured out what type of person she is. It's a tragic event, a tragic conclusion - but being a racist and ignorant is unexcusable.

Concerned mom, you said "I feel sorry for the family not for someone that should of been locked up in prison a long time ago...where he no longer could hurt anyone" So, are you saying that anyone with a mental illess whould be locked up in prison? There was no way this tragedy could have been predicted.

sackvillestudent: being mentally ill is not a crime. Killing someone on a bus is.

Vengence is not justice.

I hope with all my heart that Mr Li recovers from his disorder and than promply deported to China.

Blame our immigration dept. for letting every Tom, dick and harry into our country without background checks.These killers and gangsters can't ply their trades in their own country so they come here to run free with nary a consenquence. If this happened in China, it would have been over the next day.All you other bleeding hearts, I wonder what you'd be saying if it was your family member. " The treatment Mr.Li deserves" give your heads a shake.i cannot even fathom why I am Mr. in front of his name.

I would buy his defense except: why was this "decent person" carrying a large knife around. Its almost as if he wanted to express this rage but didn't know when or how he would do it.

we live in a society based on labels, Mr Li lived with a mental illness called "schizophrenia" Mr. Li is a person and should be refered as a person living with a mental health disorder not a "schizophrenic" as people are choosing to label him. It is unlikely society is going to change Mr. Li is going to be labeled the rest of his life as a "schizophrenic" is that not criminal enough? I believe Mr Li will live in his own personal hell and is some peoples minds justice will have been served.

Everyone is so appalled that Li was found NCR and went to a mental institution. What is truely appalling is people who want to punish someone for being sick. Make no mistakes about it, mental illness is as real an illness as cancer. He can't be put in prison for being ill. Simple. He needs treatment. What kind of society punishes people for being sick? All these reactionary squawk boxes need to think about what they are saying before blurting out the first thing that comes to mind. This man is sick.

actus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea, which means that "the act does not make a person guilty unless the mind is also guilty". A lot of the lynch mob here needs to realize that in our Common Law system, with due process, one needs to have a guilty mind in addition to a horrible act for them to be found a criminal. Mr.Li's act was monstrous and cruel, yes. There was an actus rea, but in his mind he was defending himself from a hellish demon. He is severely mentally ill. He was incapable of forming the mens rea here. People condemn him for going off his meds, but a severely ill man, with paranoid schizophrenic tendencies like Mr. Li could not possibly comprehend needing to take medication. I sympathize with the McLean family for their loss, but locking up Li forever in prison is not a solution. The man that killed Tim McLean was a prisoner in a hellish world he couldn't escape. With proper treatment in a mental facility, the Vince Li that killed Tim McLean will cease to exist, and one day the real Vince Li may again emerge. If anything this awful situation shows how woefully poorly mental illness is treated in Canada. It should indeed be looked at how Mr.Li was realeased after being picked up on the road "following the sun". There was a lack of due dilligence by that facility. Tim McLeans death was a horrible random tragedy. I feel deeply for his family and friends.

Those who think Vincent Li should be held criminally responsible should consider what kind of a society we would live in if mental illness was equated with a criminal act. I sincerely hope that Tim's Law, or anything like it, will never come to pass.

Thank goodness Judge Scurfield is a compassionate and thoughtful man. Mr. Li will now get the help he needs, and maybe Tim's family can shift their focus towards healing rather than vengeance.

I know many people would like to punish Mr. Li for what he has done. It seems unfair that a life is taken and there is no one who can be made to pay for that life. It is a main principle in our justice system that there must be the requisite mental element present to find a person guilty of an offence. I don't see today's ruling as a failure of our justice system. Sending Mr. Li to prison for life won't bring Tim McLean back to life and won't deter others who are also mentally ill from commiting such an offence. The famliy of Mr. McLean have a long road ahead to try and make sense of their loss (if that is possible), but hating Mr. Li or the criminal justice system is not going to help them along that path.

This is just great, so us people from Selkirk should see him walking our fine city soon. But that is ok because they are on medication. Lets all keep or fingers crossed that he never see's the streets of Selkirk

We are all forgetting. This man was said to be insane yet he had enough mentality to buy a bus ticket on his own, and the big question is why did he have a knife on him big enough to do what he did to his victim? Hmmm could it be he knew all along what he was going to do before he got on that bus. I say fry him.

I am sick and disgusted by this blatant failure of 'justice'...all rights are for the criminals and mentally ill in this bleeding heart liberal society of ours.

Very very sad!! This person knew how to purchase a bus ticket, travel alone, speak, etc which makes him knowingly what he is doing in life!! This law has to be changed very fast. My heart and prayers goes out to the McLean family not only for their loss but for the courts allowing his murderer to be set free. Come on Canada your a much better country than allowing this to happen to innocent people who lost their lives to someone.

Well I guess all criminals are not criminally responsible..eh Judge?

The justice system did not fail, this was the only outcome possible. Where we as a society were failed is when he was allowed to refuse treatement for his mental illness, creating the threat in the first place. I understand the right to refuse treatment for cancer or similar situations where it effects only the sick, but when it poses risks to the public, it should not be an option. I mean, can people refuse treatment for the avian flu and go to a public event? Obviously not, so what's different here? Modern science does allow for similarly objective diagoses of mental illnesses.

Seems like a fair decision based on the facts of the case and the mental illness involved. There's never going to be a perfect solution to this type of crime when you have someone who just goes nuts like Li did. Some of these commenters have a sort of blood lust where they think Li needs punishment yet many of them probably don't understand that a mental hospital and living as a paranoid schizophrenic is probably more restrictive than prison will ever be. And for those of you who think that Li is somehow faking it then maybe you have the mental illness. It is simply beyond logic that he could fake it based on the gruesomeness of the crime and the testimony of the doctors involved (but I doubt you trust doctors or medical experts in the first place if you think he's faking it)

OUR TAX MONEY...is going towards keeping Li locked up in psych... which honeslty is a day care... no joke... what a shame. My thoughts and prayers go to the McLean family.

I do not buy into all of this God told me to kill the evil forse stuff! mentanly ill or not mr. Li should not be relised back into this comunity agian! He may get treated and relised but what is saying that his illness will not return in the future? After all he does have a past with this illness and I am not convinced that he can be fully treated. The evil forse he was being told to destroy was probaly himself, how could a sleeping passenger be evil? Thanx to mr. Li I have to sit there while my daughter crys about not having her Tim anymore! For Canada to say no one is responisible for Tims murder is a bunch of crap Li did it there was 3 dozen witnesses lock the man up for life he does not deserve to be free and defenatly does not deserve to have no criminal record of this! NCR OR NOT HE IS STILL RESPONSIBLE AND SHOULD DO THE TIME FOR DOING THE CRIME!

Makes me shake my head.. "he's sick", "he needs help", what would jail accomplish for "him". Heres a thought, WHO CARES WHAT HE NEEDS.? Society and the victims here NEED "him" to be no threat to us again, at least a jail cell for the rest of his natural life would accomplish that nicely.

There is NO winner or justice is this case...The Mclean's are not winners as they have lost a Son! Mr. Li is not a winner either..He has lost his life..he lost it a long time ago. There was never going to be a verdict in this case that would please everyone. concerned mom's comment about getting out on good behavior..it doesn't work that way in a mental facility...if they feel he has not been treated properly and that he won't take his meds on his own then he won't be RELEASED!! Providing the system doesn't fail..Hmmm what are the odds of that happening here in Canada?? Pretty slim!! It's is very scary to think he MAY be out in society again free to roam our streets! I do think the Mcleans should have been able to speak and perhaps Mr.Li should have as well..if he is taking medication now and understands what happened (which he does by now)even if he feels he was not responsible at the time. Does he have any remorse for what he has done?? Does he feel he NOW needs treatment? He didn't think there was anything wrong with him before! I think that may have gone a long way in helping Tim's family start the coping process because that is all they will ever do is COPE with what has happened! They will never get over it and just move on with their lives. Perhaps Li won't either and he shouldn't he should live with it the rest of his life. His wife who never sought to get him help when he needed it should as well. I wonder how well she sleeps at night? There are ways to force someone to get help..she should have had him evaluated! LONG AGO!! You don't live day in and day out with someone and not know there is something wrong with their behavior (speaking from experience................. My thoughts and prayers go out to the Mcleans as they proceed on the long road they have ahead of them.

It's a shame this happened and now we all have to pay for his problem. Since he was convicted, he should be deported. We (Canada)should not be responsibile to keep him for God knows for how long. Waste more of our hard earned money for the rest of his life, while we the law abiding people are having a hard time just to get by. Justice, ya ya ya.

Justice and vengeance are not synonyms, and a just decision doesn't always satisfy our hunger for punishment -- nor does it necessarily ease our fears. Like many people who have posted comments, I live in fear of Mr. Li (or others like him) being released one day, sanity dependent upon medication. But at least he will not be released until a well-qualified medical review board deems him fit. The same cannot be said for too many violent offenders who serve their sentences and are freed with jailers' full awareness that they are likely to commit similar or worse crimes in the future. The odds of any of us having our lives touched again by Mr. Li are infinitesimal compared to the odds of our being victimized by a criminal with no mental illness.

If medical science finds some miracle cure for the chemical or electrical imbalance that causes schizophrenia, why would we not release Li? If we are going imprison people because illnesses they did not ask for kill surrounding people against the wishes of the logical side of their minds, then we'd have to imprison all the people with the flu who visit or work around the elderly and give them a fatal case of the flu. The only difference is that when your loved one dies from the flu, there is a couple of days where they suffer, the killer was not insane, and it happened behind closed doors with no press coverage.

My thoughts go out to the victim's family, and I can't help but think that if Mr. Li is deemed ok at some point down the road as long as he takes his meds, but then stops taking them when he is out, he will do this horrendous thing again because there is no follow-up in place to make sure that mental patients keep taking their meds once out.

how can you people think it was the right decision?! Murder by definition is INTENTIONAL KILLING! i dont care if he was killing a "evil demon" like he said he was, IT WAS MURDER. simple as that. their was intent to kill. no matter how insane this guy is. Canada needs the death penalty back. how does canada expect us to listen to the justice system, when the justice system doesnt even listen to itself! this is ridiculous.

Our justice system is pathetic. Now we have to deal with the possiblity of this [edited] being released into society in the future. [edited] Society's accountablity is crumbling and letting a person like him "survive" will contribute to the end of a civilized world.

This is the right verdict. Li will be locked up in a secure mental health facility forever, or until he is sufficiently cured to be safe. That is a considerably longer sentence than he'd get for manslaughter. It is a considerably harsher penalty than he'd get for accidentally killing someone after willfully getting drunk (with a knife, or rear-ending them after getting so drunk he fell asleep at the wheel). And if Li is cured, why should he not be released? It is not as if he asked to have his terrible illness.

I agree with the anonymous post above... he can't ever be released.. not because of what he did (I do believe he should never see freedom again because of this though don't get me wrong) but because of all the threats he has received and his own personal demons. I'm sure when the news posts a story saying he is being released there will be a whole new set of threats. And no matter how "sane" he becomes he will always know what he did and as a "sane" person this would destroy him, and possibly make him do something crazy again. There is no fixing him. The judging was fair according to the justice system, and I think he should spend the rest of his life in the mental hospital. I hope the McLean family can find peace through all this. What a terrible tragedy!!

I understand how the justice system came to this decision. However I do wonder how the justice system in Mr. Li's country of origin would have handled it.

The fact that this man is mentally disturbed is a forgone conclusion and we do not need a justice system to confirm it. What we need is a justice system that punishes crime and here is another example of how it has failed us and proof that people can get away with murder.

sorry i meant to say earlier that I am glad that Mr. Li will NOW (and not NOT) get the help he needs

I find it odd that when initially arrested Mr. Li proclaimed he was guilty and he thought he should be killed for his crime. So he seemed to know what he did and that it was wrong. Once the lawyers and doctors got a hold of him he now thinks he is not guilty and should not be criminally responsible. Not much can be argued that his mind is not right compared to most people. Whether he goes to jail or a mental facility he will serve time. What my biggest concern is that he will one day walk free because that is what we do in Canada. Sooner or later doctors will say he is no longer a threat. We need to be like other countries and lock this man up forever whether it be jail or a mental facility because he deserves no less and society deserves no less so we can be safe in our community and most of all the family of Mr. McLean deserve no less! Also shame on Mr. Li's family for not getting him help when you could see he needed it. As far as I'm concerned you should do jail time as you are gulity as well.

Explain to me what putting him in jail will accomplish? The man needs medical help for sure. He will get this in Mental Institution if they don't fail him. He should be held for as long as it takes. He should never be released in public, but we know that will never happen because of the law. Gotta fell sorry for the Mclean family who are very frustrated about now.

this is just makes me sick! i have never been so disheartened by our justice system. the thought that this man even stands a chance of being re-intigrated into our public enrages me!

We all knew the verdict would be NCR... and everyone should be happy as this means he is forced to receive treatment. The uproar is the fact there is no minimum time frame that he will be institutionalized. I think the main concern here is that he will have the opportunity to live free in society again and at that point he could decide at any time to stop taking his meds. With current laws then nobody, family or friend or doctor, can force treatment so this case should open up our eyes by making a change to that.

You can't blame Judge Scurfield. He can only follow the laws as they are written. The criminal code needs to be amended for such disgusting crimes. Any other verdict would just have been overturned on appeal.

This is a tragic situation with a joke of a solution. Lets suppose Li spends years inside, gets treatment and gets released as "sane" as you or I.. you think he'll ever get a job?, get a place to live?.. with the world knowing who he is?. The fact is he will never know another moment of peace in his life, or contribute to society. Whats the point?.. If there was ever a case of a person being demonically possessed this is it and we as a society are chasing our tail and fooling ourselves to our own demise if we think he will ever be anything other than a drain on, and a danger to us. I'm all for helping those with illness, and often helped make it happen, but in an extreme a case as this, there is no hope of reintergration, this man should be dispatched, and he, according to his first comments to authorities would agree. God help us.

Mr. Li's lifetime sentence barring him from ever tasting freedom again began the day he was diagnosed with mental illness. His personal hell goes beyond what 'Tim's Law' could ever pronounce upon him. My condolences, as well, to the McLean family. May you too someday find your peace.

I am completely disgusted with our Justice System! No, the man has no grasp of reality, and yes he is a victim of a serious mental illness, but he is not a victim of this crime. Anyone who is capable of such inhuman acts like Vincent Li, mental or not, should be held criminally resposible!!!

Finally, the vast majority of the comments here are not anger filled and vengeful. The right decision was made by the judge. Kudos to Jean for making the best comments. Mr. Li may very well be never heard from again as there is no parole in a mental health facility or faint hope clauses or anything of the sort, no classes to take, or any of the perks offered by a regular prison system plus he lives with the label of schizophrenic for the rest of his life which is a lot more stigmatising than ex-con. The McLean family got their "life for a life", and justice was served and yes I would think this if this was one of my own family members. I do agree with Gerdy that the McLeans should have given the opportunity for victim impact statements (not for Mr. Li's benefit) but for their own healing to begin.

Clearly this is the most intelligent and reasonable decision that could be made in this horrifying and tragic situation. My heart goes out to all parties. The justice system has not failed! Now let's hope and pray that the mental health system also does not fail!

Has the justice system failed? Maybe yes, maybe no. But for the fact that this guy knew he needed treatment for his schizophrenia and never seeked help/took his med's, isn't there something wrong with this guy being pretty much free? They'll review him every year to see if he's fit to be in the public, and who knows, one day he will be. Getting sent to a "psych ward" gives more freedom at times than a jail. The guy should have a record, and NEVER be released from that facility. I'm glad that the McLean family can now try to heal their wounds, but they are still going to have a fight on their hands when his review comes up every year. He should've been deported back to China, and they could've dealt with him in their way. They would've beheaded him there. Why shouldn't we?

There is no guarantee that he will spend more than a couple years in a mental health facility!! I'm sorry but this family is not getting any justice. My heart goes out to them!

I am saddened by our justice system for this poor family who lost something so precious that will never be replaced, what if they release him in two years on good behaviour ?,what happens to our children then? Should we lock up our children to keep them safe? I feel sorry for the family not for someone that should of been locked up in prison a long time ago...where he no longer could hurt anyone.

This was the right decision. All those who think it's "disgusting" or a "failure of justice" need to really think about this - the man had no grasp on reality. It's like a lightning strike - Tim McLean was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Let Li get the help he needs over the next decade or so, and keep a watchful eye on him. It's not like he's walking free today, people!

The court outcome was predictable, but the Crown should have allowed Tim's mother and others to make impact statements. I believe the expressions of grief would have benefited the family and Vince Li. Instead, the victim and his family were completely shut out of the judicial process. Now the McLean's will likely launch a civil suit against the hospital that released a dangerous Mr. Li back into society w/o a proper diagnosis or treatment.

Looks like the right decision by the judge to me.

What disturbs me is that he had already been diagnosed as a schizophrenic but he was allowed to refuse treatment.

What a sad ending to a sad story. My thoughts & prayers are with the families. As angering as the verdict is, there are two victims here. This never would have happened if Mr. Li didn't have a mental illness. The killing, however brutal, is a direct result of this condition. Make no mistake, Vincent Li will spend the rest of his life in a psychiatric institution and never be heard from again. He would be better off in prison. Anyone who thinks psychiatric institutions are like a country club watch too much TV. The family is getting the "life for a life" they desire - it only has a different label. Justice has indeed been served.

Chey, Would you say the same if it was one of your family members??

Why is it a failed system, Kristy? He'll be in a locked ward, maybe for longer than he would have been in jail, because there's no parole from a mental facility. He might never be released. (And I hope he won't.)

This is ridiculous, obviously no sane person would do this, but that is NOT an excuse for him to not be held responsible! the outcome of this case is unbelievable. no justice or closure was given to Tim's family or Friends. our Legal system has failed, once again.

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I read this on another news org. comment section, I feel this can maybe explain possibly how Li is. Suppose you have an apple in each hand. You KNOW, for a fact, that you have an apple in each hand. And yet, everyone you meet asks why you're carrying bananas. You can see them, feel them, smell them; two round, firm, juicy MacIntosh apples, freshly picked, brightly coloured. And yet everyone you meet asks you why you're carrying two bananas. Who do you believe - your senses? Your own eyes, hands, nose? Or the huge conspiracy of liars out there determined to convince you that you have a pair of bananas in your hands? - plainly ridiculous, because you can see, feel, taste and smell two MacIntosh apples. "This isn't all of Mr. Li's family and friends telling him he has a huge welt on his face or that his nose is bleeding, something which he could verify on his own. This is Mr. Li's family and friends telling him something which flies in the face of everything he feels. He KNOWS that those voices he's hearing are real; it doesn't matter that no one else can hear them, they're obviously all just lying."

He needs mental help, obviously, but he should NEVER be let out to be free among society!

Its not saying he's not responsible, it's saying he is not 'criminally' responsible. While, I'm not a fan of the justice system in a lot of regards, there is not a lot of evidence to say that the judge got this wrong.

Very fair and appropriate decision. I hope that all parties are able to begin their healing process and find peace within.

Just as long as he is NEVER let out of that mental facility!!

A very fair and wise decision! It is time now for all to begin healing!

Is it not wonderful to know that our Justice system is there to protect us citizens who try to abide by the law. No wonder everyone has no faith in justice anymore. Shame on you Judge Scurfield!

I am so sorry for the sorrow that the McLean family has been through with this entire event. But I am glad that Mr. Li will not get the help he needs. I only hope our mental health care system does not fail him or the rest of Canadians by letting him go free if he should really be kept locked up or without proper support to check up on him if he is deemed fit in the future to be released.

Disgusting all I have to say!!!!! What a failed Justice system!!

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