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Ticket refunds? Maybe

Driver starts class action against city

By: Bruce Owen

9/05/2009 1:00 AM | Comments: 11

Phil.Hossack@freepress.mb.ca New rules clarify when photo-radar vans can ticket vehicles in construction zones, as well as signage that is required.

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Phil.Hossack@freepress.mb.ca New rules clarify when photo-radar vans can ticket vehicles in construction zones, as well as signage that is required.

The chances of speeders caught in the act by photo radar actually getting a ticket refund appear to be growing slimmer.

While Attorney General Dave Chomiak raised hopes earlier this week of a possible fine rebate for drivers ticketed in construction zones, he and his advisers were less than encouraging Friday.

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At the same time, the province set down in law how police can use photo radar in construction zones.

The new rules essentially give photo-radar vans the green light to do what they were doing before this week's political ruckus over speeding tickets in unmanned construction zones -- but this time tickets and accompanying fines will stick.

The new regulations say city-run speed-enforcement cameras can only be used in construction zones when workers are present. If no workers are present, there must be a specific safety risk for police to enforce reduced speeds on weekends. There also must be a proper sign in place advising drivers they are entering a construction zone with a reduced speed and a second sign at the end of the construction zone advising drivers they can resume travelling the posted speed limit.

By giving police clear guidelines where and when the photo-radar vans can be used, the Doer government also hopes to put behind it the bitter finger-pointing between it and the city over who's to blame for the fiasco.

"We're at where we're at," a frustrated Mayor Sam Katz said after speaking with Chomiak and Winnipeg police Chief Keith McCaskill on the matter. "The idea now is to make sure everyone understands what photo radar is and how it applies.

"When you're doing something, you always want to make sure you're making it very clear to the public what you're doing."

Meanwhile, Winnipeg resident Tyler Weaver has initiated a class-action lawsuit against the City of Winnipeg, alleging the city improperly collected the photo-radar fines.

The legal action must still be accepted by the courts as a class-action suit on behalf of all motorists.

Weaver alleges in the statement of claim that the City of Winnipeg, "unjustly enriched itself at the expense of the plaintiffs."

Weaver states that all fines, fees and other penalties imposed through the photo-radar tickets, "were without colour of right and thus should not have been levied, imposed, sought or collected."

Late last week, the city was caught completely off guard when the province announced it was abandoning its appeal of a traffic-court case that saw a magistrate toss out nine speeding offences because the tickets were issued when workers weren't on the job. Magistrate Norman Sundstrom said workers must be working for police to enforce reduced speed limits in construction zones.

What made it worse for the city and the police traffic division is that the Crown also said the public works department had not properly installed signs at the end of photo-enforced construction zones to tell drivers they could increase their speed to the posted limit. Because of that, the Crown also stayed 875 speeding offences still before the courts on the basis it could not prosecute because of the lack of signage.

The decision stunned police and later outraged the public when Chomiak said tickets issued last year would not be refunded because the fines had already been paid. A day later, Chomiak softened his stance when he said 60,000 tickets had been issued last year -- a huge jump from 3,000 the year before -- making it look like a cash grab, and that officials in the Justice department would examine the possibility of fine repayments.

Chomiak said Friday a final decision on refunds -- not expected for several weeks -- will be based on the law, not politics.

bruce.owen@freepress.mb.ca

The new rules

New rules for photo radar in construction zones (Image Capturing Enforcement Regulation amendment under Highway Traffic Act):

 

9(3) A municipality or police service must not use a photo radar system to detect a speed limit violation that occurs within a construction zone, unless:

(a) one or more construction workers are present in the zone; or

(b) the municipality:

(i) has, in accordance with the Act, imposed a speed limit in the zone that is lower than the maximum speed normally permitted for the portion of highway containing the zone,

(ii) has placed an approved traffic control device at the beginning of the zone stating the lower speed limit and at the end of the zone indicating that traffic may proceed at the maximum speed normally permitted, and

(iii) has, if the municipality considers it advisable to do so, placed approved traffic control devices at intervals within the zone stating the lower speed limit.

 

Republished from the Winnipeg Free Press print edition May 9, 2009 A3

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11 Commentscomment icon

If they want to make tons of money legally, they should post 2 traffic police cars on Empress & Ellice (one east and west on Ellice).

If there are any people that shop near the Wal-mart by Polo Park know where I'm coming from, unless they are the ones who don't see or understand the sign that is posted everywhere, on Empress St.both directions(This intersection is a 'High Traffic Intersection'.)

The sign there states: no left turns (07:00 - 22:00 thats 7am - 10pm not 7 am to 7:22am) Empress onto Ellice

Not Mon - Fri but EVERYDAY PEOPLE. Drivers apparantley don't know what that means and they continue to make left hand turns which hold traffic up forever.
I was there yesterday, 3 cars in a row tried to make a left hand turn, traffic was backed up to Sargent Avenue. I was waiting for 5 or 6 light changes.

So to those people that don't obey the signs, stop being so selfish or park your car because you obviously don't know how to drive or read. It isn't just you on the road, there are others you must share the road with, so stop being selfish.

If WPS started ticketing these people at $200 a pop, average 50 cars a day, (I say 50 but there are a lot more, a year back or so,I saw radar there and he pulled over probably 12 cars in less than a half hour), they would rake in $10,000 a day, if not more...easily and legally!!

50 cars a day X $200 fine = $10,000 a day
$10,000 a day X 7 days = $70,000 a week
$70,000 a week X 52 weeks = $3,640,000 a year

How's that for a legal cash grab!

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It's time this tax camera scam is ended. I hope those who were robbed keep up their fight and the oposition PC's make an election issue out of this. It has been thrown out elsewhere for just the same reasons.

I think we should have our money back. I went down to fight my ticket as it was on a Sunday afternoon on Lagimodiere and I was going 80 which is the speed limit normally. I had no idea that the speed limit of 60 was for Sundays also. I had no choice but to pay.

None of you deserve a refund if you were exceeding the normal speed limit for whatever street you were on (as opposed to the lower construction zone limit). You were speeding, end of argument.

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If the city wants a new cash cow go to lakewood and beaverhill and see everyone go right through the four way stop signs. Then you can go to guyot school and niakwa place school ,and JH brunz and see all the parents blowing through the stop signs coming out of southdale esates ,southbridge road and pebblebeach road. These people think there better than everyone else and they dont have to follow the rules. When you see a stop sign that means come to a complete stop not a dam brake and roll. Then wait your turn and procede. One day you might kill a child and it might be your own and maybe somebody elses so grab a brain and drive like a normal person. So please sam katz get your police cars in this area and you will catch hundreds of people daily trust me. I wish i could only be there when one of these parents get a ticket and have to pay it. So stop been in a hurray and keep your kids safe whats the bloody hurry.

$$$$ Cha..ching!!!! is too funny! No speeding = no ticket = money left in your pocket! It's as simple as that!

So the NDP does their "U-turn" and promises to give back the money, but now say that won't? Give me a break, and give me my $300 back! The court ruled it is invalid!

Sign the petition at www.pcmanitoba.com to get all of our money back.

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BIG loophole in that law. 9(3)ii is still a problem.

That sign indicating you can resume your speed is bogus, because almost ALL roads have a speed limit sign somewhere along the stretch, and THAT existing sign could be considered the "ok to speed up" sign.

The city was lazy in not putting up "End Of Construction Zone" signs before (which was required by the old law), and now this new law in effect says that specific sign isn't needed.

What it comes down to, is that the city will consider the zone to be from the first (and only) specific zone sign, all the way down the road to the next natural speed limit sign.

Nothing has really changed in that area.

The real questions are these:
Who wrote up the procedure for the signs department in regards to placing these signs on the road?
Was there an intentional omission with the "End Zone" signs?
Why did the city not act sooner to correct a blatant problem?
How much did it cost the city to operate the photo radar during this time?

If you excuse 875 vehicle owners from paying their tickets , then I and several others who have received tickets and paid them for the IDENTICAL infraction , must receive refunds . That is JUSTICE (for all). If the government can't resolve who should get a refund , then put a time limit (say by Dec 31/09) on when those requesting refunds have to advise you they feel they are entitled to a refund . You can simply validate those requests , to see that the tickets were at construction zones when no construction workers were present , and the normal speed limit was not exceeded . You can keep the money of those that didn't dedicate the effort to demand they be treated equally/fairly .

Sounds to me like the government really enjoyed the extra cash! So much so that they will try to find a way out of paying people back.

As for the new rules for photo radar in construction zones...it's being masked as a safety issue but I hear the coin falling right into the government coffers...$$$$ Cha..ching!!!!

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